Stupid Street Bikers!!!

I think so far both sides have some valid points. First off, it's pretty damn obvious that you can learn easier on a lower power bike. Just handling, reaction etc/etc. No, you can't control all the variable like rhythmnsmoke said. Not even under the best conditions.
I've ridden bikes (dirt bikes) since I was about 10. worked my way up, becuase it was the smart thing to do (that and sizing). Even still, if you get into a bad situation, someone to close, someone cuts you off, etc/etc, under the best of best conditions, I still dump a bike now and then. However I have found it some much easier to handle a lighter and less powered bike under these conditions. You honestly cant be sure how you'll react in a situation when 1/1000's of a second mean everything, and you hit the trottle a little too much, steer a little too much, or slam the brakes. With something that is a little less "touchy", sometimes this helps, probably 80% of the time. In other situations, that little extra response or power is going to get your ass out of a situation a lot better.
If you do buy the 600, and it sounds like you are going to, cause you have your mind set on it no matter what, at least take a 500 or less out for a couple days. Drive around the neighborhood and get used to not only the bike, but especially what it's like to be on a bike. How everything you do affects the ride.
Yes, you will dump your bike, whatever you are riding. Yes you will most likely have a handful of close calls, no matter what you are riding, but from experience on riding a LOT of different bikes, you'll have a better chance when you are comfortable with what you are riding, and know it well.

Thank You So MUCH Millhouse! That is what I have been trying to tell dude all this time. Maybe if he hear's it from someone other than me, he would see what the heck I've been talking about. "at least take a 500 or less out for a couple of days". That's what I have been planning on doing all this time. Except it will be more than just a couple of days, seeing as how I'm not getting it till the end of July, early Aug. So, Kwong, drop it already dude....I GOT IT COVERED! Like I said, I just think he was upset that he had to start on that GS500, cause he couldn't get a 600 from the start. So, he dosen't want me to have mine. And to get a 250/500, even though I already have access to a smaller cc bike.

Hey, dont put me on any side just yet. I personally think both of you have been really rude in some of the discussions, but hey, thats just me.
If you are going to have a 500 or less, or be on it for awhile (a few weeks would be great) just to understand HOW to ride, not how the bike works and shit, but how you have to react during different braking speeds, accelerations, braking on corners etc/etc then thats juget great. However, that does NOT mean that it going to help you a ton for when you get on something with more power. I remember when I jumped up almost 150cc from one bike to another, I knew it was going to take a awhile to learn the new bike. I would constant switch back to the other just to get a little more comfortable and then tackle the other. This is all after I have been riding since I was 10 (the situation in question was when I was 16; after 6 years of driving).
I would also like to add that I learn really fast. I learnt how to snowboard and was on double black diamonds within 4 days. I learn how to takeboard and was doing 180's after 3 times (15 minutes each) o nthe water. I learn how to drive a manual very well, including smooth double clutching, in under 15 minutes. Sure that was quick and all, learning is not a problem, the problem is being confident in what you are doing, being comfortable on your bike and knowing how it will react, and especially how YOU will react in adverse situations.
I remember my first crash on a dirt bike was out at the lake, coming around a corner, lost traction on some grass that was on the gravel and went sideways into the side of a cliff. I reacted quick enough, just too much though. You'll learn quick like that, but it will cost you a lot

I'm just saying, that everything you are saying is what I've been telling him all this time. Starting out on a 600 is clearly not for everyone, and I understand that. I'm just trying to explain, that I can handle it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...item=4556191937&category=6710&sspagename=WDVW


this the ideal bike for a starter i have my heart set on a suzsuki sv650 but not a starter bike. for 800 bucks i could care less if i drop it or not i'm going to lose anymoney on it but buying a brand new bike for 6-8k and droping it that a different story.

Show me a video where a 700hp supra doesn't have turbo lag

Do you know how easy it is to sell a Ninja 250 or 500? They sell within 1-2 days of posting a for sale. They're never on cycle trader because they get sold before the publication can come out. Let me tell you how easy selling a bike is, you're sitting at home, sipping your favorite choice of beer, some n00b comes along, looks at the bike, gives you cash, you write a few things on the title, and that's it. It's not that hard.

Yeah, you just said you'd rather learn off of a less forgiving bike with a steep learning curve...

You know, it's simple statistics, you're more likely to go down on a sportbike, than a beginner bike, plain and simple. Great you love your bike, sure you think you won't put yourself in ANY danger. Just as long as you never actually ride the bike.

The last thing Im going to say for now is be careful. personally if I was just starting out on a bike, I would never buy a 600 to start, even if you think you are mature, and would never test the limits of the bike too soon, there are things that are going to happen that you didnt count on, and it might screw you over good.
My friend bought a brand new 600 when he turned 18 (actually, I think it may have been paid for by his parents, but the bike was his choice). First time rider, had driven a lot of off road stuff in the past, excellent car driver, but never on a bike.
Within a week he totaled the bike becuase he paniced when someone cut him off in an intersection. Cut his calf open from his keep to his knee, screwed up his right hand mighty good, and has some ugly scars.
Now I'm not saying that wouldnt have happened on a smaller and more forgiving bike, but i HONESTLY think it would have helped him. He hit the brakes was too hard and turned at the same time, and dumped it. Had he been on a smaller bike, the same pressure and reaction would have resulted in something much more different.
And as for another friend, Brian, may he rest in peace, he got too comfortable on his bike too quick (was not skilled yet, but honestly thought he was). Went out on the perimeter, doing 60mph, and within something like 5km's from the entry ramp, was run over by a semi when he caught a gust of wind, over-compensated, dropped, and slid into the other lane.
Almost every rider has a friend or knows someone who was been killed for something stupid they did, and along with that, a lot of people they know or knew who went down becuase of how they reacted in a bad situation on their bike.

Every turbo has somewhat minor turbo lag. That has nothing to do with Supra.

You left out the initial purchase of the bike. You jump from start to finish and leave out the financing, going to get the loan. If paying cash, then the saving up despite other bills you have to pay. Then learning, then selling. Sorry, calling my friend, driving about 10mins. to his house, and riding on his bike at no cost to me, except the gas I used to get there, is a lot easier to do.

And I also told you that it's going to be about 2months before I get the bike, and I will be practicing before hand.

I assume your talking from the point of view of a noob on a sportbike vs. a noob on a beginner. It's probably true that you will more than likely make a mistake. But that does not prove that you should not learn on a 600. That just says it's going to be tougher. Why do you keep misreading everything I say, and putting words into my mouth? How old are you? I never said that I WON'T put myself in ANY danger. I didn't think I would need to clarify it to this degree. I said that I WON'T be in any danger until, I think my skill is good enough to mingle with the increased/uncontrollable environment.

If you can't adjust to the degree of forgiveness in the newer more powerful bike, then you shouldn't be on that bike to begin with.

Guess I will have to clarify this for you. Gixxer's have very good aftermarket support. The minute I feel the need, I can just upgrade the bike, and make it more powerful. I don't wish to go 180+ mph on a motorcycle. Therefore, ability to tune for more power + no desire to go faster than what the bike is capable of = not out growing it. Either, you are not reading my post entirely, or you just somehow misread what I just wrote. Don't post responses without reading everything someone says. You act like I'm going straight from no knowledge of motorcycles to jumping on a 600. Clarification for you...MSF + time on friends low powered bike + duration of 2 months before getting gixxer = more knowledge than just hopping on the 600 to start.

Exactly, you were getting in over "YOUR" head. I'm not you, and you are not me. Don't assume that just because you can't handle it, that I can't and no body else can either. If everyone followed someone else, then who is in the lead?

That's why a 700hp supra can only do a 10 second quarter mile when a muscle car with 500hp can do the same 10 second quarter. That's why supras are only raced on the freeway, cuz they have serious turbo lag. That's why you never see them on a road course, cuz they're slow as shit with their crappy engine response.

Financing? Wait, I thought $1500 is nothing to you since you make $1100 a week? So now you need financing? So now you're poor? Come on now...

I'll believe it when i see it...or hear about it

No, you only say you're gonna know how to react towards every situation cuz you're gonna take it so slow, you'll never get out on the highway. You're a mature 25 year old who won't be stupid on a bike you've never rode before.

Fact is, you know yourself, but you don't know how you'll react on an unforgiving bike.

And a Dodge Viper can be driven by a n00b, but that doesn't mean he'll be able to handle it. Just like a Formula 1 car. A modern 600 is not a beginner's bike. A beginner's bike isn't being raced on SpeedVision by the professionals.

And you can adjust to that forgiveness? So you're wrist is sensitive enough to 1/32 turn of the throttle? You know any more than that, and you can find yourself going FAR past the speed limit or your abilities? What makes you think you can control the throttle when you hit a bump?

I guess i'll have to clarify what I said to you, a modern sportbike CANNOT be outgrown by the average rider. I'm not talking about going fast in a straight line, that's easy, i'm talking about being able to take turns. You know there's plenty of Ninja 250's that can kick the shit out of people on 600's? Why do you think that is? It's because the person on the 250 has actually developed his skills and become faster, while the 600 guys are still fighting their bikes.

Sporbikes are race bikes, and only a pro can take full advantage of it's capabilities. The average person cannot take advantage of a modern sportbike, just like the average person can never take full advantage of the 800hp Mine's Skyline R34.

You don't need aftermarket parts to make the bike faster, you'll never outgrow a GSXR600, even in stock form.

Nope, I could have rode one, I just chose not to because it wasn't a very forgiving bike, and i'd rather make my mistakes on a bike that IS more forgiving. I'd rather become a better rider faster, then have to constantly be fighting the bike to get it to do what I want. You can't build skill and be faster by first jumping on the fastest bike, you gotta take the slowest bike and then work your way up.

Fact is, there's a lot of people who have made a 600 work, and there's a lot of people you never hear about because it didn't work for them. And i'll bet there's more that it DIDN'T work for, or people who never really developed proper riding skills but rather, just enough to not get them killed.

Maybe you should invest in a session of Best Motoring, before you try to comment on something you only THINK you know about.

Sorry dude...I don't live with my mom's you know. I have bills like every other red blooded American. If I wanted to pay cash, it would take longer. A 250/500 cost more than $1,500 dollars. Bro...please listen to yourself.



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Don't worry, you don't, and I don't have to prove it to you. Do you really think I'm going to PM you on my learning status. Usually I make people buy me dinner before I get personal...lol...

Once again....stop putting words in my mouth! I didn't say I was gonna know how to react towards every situation. I said as I learn more, the situations will become more challenging/dangerous, or however you want to label it. You assume to much..

And let me guess, just because you started on a 500, you automatically become the expert on a totally different more unforgiving bike.

AFTER I HAVE BEEN ON MY FRIENDS BIKE FOR TWO MONTHS! Dang you don't listen. What makes you think I can't? It's a motorcycle, not a Wild Bull that you will never know which way it's going to buck next.

You know, at some point, you are not an AVERAGE rider anymore. That has been the most outrageous statement you have made thus far... I guess average riders don't purchase Hayabusa's that are capable of doing 200mph of the show room floor. I guess everyone on a Hayabusa is a Safe, careful, and my favorite "EXPERT" motorcycle rider. They might have experience, but they are not all experts. Just to let you know, there are 3 classes of gixxer's. The GSXR600, GSXR750, and GSXR1000. If you can never outgrow a 600, then why make a 750 and 1000 of the same bike.

So, what happens when you meet a guy who has been riding his 600 for a while? That's what I thought. You get sent home to return your grandaddy's bike back to him that's what. You trying to compare someone who has been riding a while to someone who just started. You are starting to rely on absurdaties. Say it with me now..."ABSURD". Because that's what it is when you try to imply that a 250 can beat a 600 in the twisties. So, how many 600's have you spanked? Start listing your kills dude, and stop talking vomit.

AHHHAAA....Sportbikes are street legal, race bikes aren't. Guess the pro's were born a pro. Damn, that must be a gift from God to be born a pro, and can use all the potential of a sportbike. And if you wasn't born a pro to begin with, you will NEVER be able to use it's full potential, then I guess you just SOL. And manufactures sell sportbikes...OH Sorry! "race bikes" on the street to tease everyone else. And they even sell higher mph, more powerful machines than the one I'm getting. If you got to be a PRO/Expert to ride a 600, then I guess you got to be a PRO with sponsorship, your own race track, and the money to buy a Hayabusa, GSXR1000, R1...etc..

Get it straight...there is a difference between NOT being able to outgrown something, and NOT WANTING or feel the NEED TO outgrow something.

Coming from the almighty "IT HAS TO BE DONE THIS WAY OR ELSE" guy.

Then why do you keep talking like it's the gosspel truth, and there is no other way, when it has been done before. What's proper riding skills Mr. "I know this is the way and only way to ride, even though I've only rode my bike a few times"? Man...you are arguing for the sake of arguing now as someone else pointed out. You ever heard the saying, "If someone tells him/herself something so much, that they can start to believe it's the factual and actual truth, even though it can be false or mislead". I think you have a case of that my friend. So, stop responding before your opinions start to sound any more absurd that what they already do. Because you can't out smart a smartass like me...lol.. You say, "This is the way it has to be done". I'm just merely saying you can do it your way, but it's not mandatory in order to learn what you need to learn to ride. Skill dosen't stay STAGNANT, the longer and more I practice, the better I will become. You don't have to be an EXPERT to ride a 600 in everyday traffic.

PS...Practice Makes Perfect!

Well whatever, at this point i'm wasting my time. This'll be my final post....and i'll leave you with this little word of advice, keep up with maintenance and don't think ever think you're better than the bike.

I've seen best motoring videos, and have never been impressed with their supra test drives.

Go two pages back, after I said you'd lose $1500 with the GSXR600, you said that's not a lot of money since you make $1100 every paycheck. Listen to YOURSELF

An unforgiving bike can be unpredictable when over controlled, or controlled past the skill level of the rider. It's true with any type of motor vehicle.

The bikes are made to satisfy the rule books for racing. Fact is, MOST PEOPLE WILL NEVER OUTGROW a 600cc sportbike. Ask any real racer, and they'll tell you the same thing. Rider skill is not measured by how fast you can go in a straight line, it's measured by how fast you are on a road course.

Goto sportbikes.ws or sportbikes.net, there are people who have 250's that can beat a 600 in the turns. Tight twisties with no straights, is where the real rider skill will show.

Fact is, if the bike has a less sensitive throttle, in a low speed turn, it will be much more forgiving and give the rider one less thing to concentrate on. A 600cc sportbike on turn, will make the rider constantly have to modulate the throttle more, and he'll concentrate MORE on taming the power, vs. concentrating on being faster in the corners. Again, talk to a real racer and they'll confirm it. Or just go race your car or something, then race in a high powered car and tell me which one is easier to drive in the corners.

And since this is a thread about "i know so and so who has done..." A friend of mine with an SV650 recently did a 20 minute lapping day and was out cornering a guy on a GSXR1000, only difference was the 1000 ripped him a new one on the straghts, but it's clear the 1000's rider didn't have any skills vs. my friend on the sv

There isn't much of a difference between a street legal sportbike, and a race bike. They have different fuel maps, maybe a different camshaft, and the materials are different. But the capabilities have very little difference.

Sorry, you can want to be as fast as you want to be, but unless you're a natural, you'll never outgrow a 600 sportbike.

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I'll leave you with one last thing, goto www.sportbike.ws or www.sportbikes.net and surf the forums a bit and start posting there. They are general sportbike forums which aren't loyal to any make or model. You talk to GSXR.com, and they're specific to a brand, and all a bunch of people who have started on GSXR's. Find a general forum with experienced riders, it's less biased and has more people who have been around for a long time.

Then you must have missed the Mines tuned Toyota Supra. Wasn't as fas as the Skyline, but still a beast.

You took that out of context. i said it wasn't a lot of money to me...NOT that it didn't mean anything. I was just merely saying that it's not that great of a deal like you were trying to make it out to be. And, to add to that, I would rather get financed and pay for it over time, that way I can use the extra money for modding the TC, or the Corolla.

Traffic can be unforgiving.

And MOST PEOPLE DON'T CARE TOO. I'm one of those people. I will be riding my 600 for a very long time. And if I need to feel like it needs more power, I can modd it for more power. Not to mention, everyone does not have access to a road course. I for one, DO have access. The Nashville SuperSpeedway has open course on Moto Race days.

And the riders were of equal abilities? If not, then this is a pointless statement. I'm sure I can keep up with my g/f if she was in the TC, and I was in the slower Corolla in the corners, because I've been driving a five speed since the age of 15, and she has only been driving for 4 months, and the TC is the first manual she has ever driven. But will I go as far as saying that my measley 95 Corolla was a better, faster car. I think not, because if we swapped places, and she was in the Corolla, she would be no where in sight.

I would, if I had a higher powered car. And I will gaurantee I will post a lower lap time in the faster car too.

Better rider vs. not so good rider...and your point is?

One last thing I wanted to point out. Your logic was that a safe rider was a "Skilled Rider".

Go here Site. And scroll down to the one that says City Maddness. It takes some hella skill and big balls to do that. But is he a safe rider, does he follow traffic rules...I don't think so.

I will back up kwong a little on that one. It's pretty damn obvious that a smaller bike is easier to push around and handle. Again, I've been riding bikes since I was 10. However, you both have gotten way off topic now, into the realm of racing and not being safe, and outgrowing your bike, not about being able to handle it.
If I were a mod, this is about where I would close the pissing content.

Backing him up on the fact that they aren't very forgiving for a first time rider. I've gone through a lot of bikes, so I personally think I know what I'm talking about.

Yes it's all based on opinions for both of them.

WTF? lol I'm not even a part of it. No one wants to argue with me (about the topic) lol

I just dont think anything is being added anymore. It reminds me of the two kids that I used to babysit. Personally I think it's gotten stupid now, but some people might enjoy that.

It takes quite a bit to annoy me. Not annoyed, just think it's getting a little immature between the two contestants involved. All that possibly can be said, or at least what each person wants to say has been done. Both sides of the opinion have been shared. Good job.
But hey, now I'm WAY off topic.

I've been saying the same stuff over and over again. Kwong is the one trying to come up with new stretches to the truth, and passing them of as if they were facts. And frankly, I think everyone else understands, and can get a clear picture of the road that I'm taking and realize it's not what he is trying to make it out to be. I tell him that the apple is red, and he comes back and tells me that "Yeah, but you have to use a fork instead of a knife to cut it open". Sounds stupid dosen't it.

i agree w/ kwongs approach to things