my AE112 Corolla

my AE112 Corolla

Guys.. this is my '00 Rolla 7A-FE engine. need suggestion for engine mods. I want to beat heavily upgraded Lancer GTi (4G93) engine and B16A civic ^_^. I have a plan to swap the head with 4a-ge 20v blacktop (build a 7a-ge). What do you think guys?

Thanks

very nice wheels. i think they add an almost rally type look to the car.

i think if you drop in the blacktop you are talking about serious performance. i wish i could drop in a blacktop six speed into my car.

thanks bro

where can i get that front bumper/grill/headlight combo? is it available in europe? how much would it cost in europe?(i have family in russia)

It may look simple from the outside but awesome inside, specially under the hood

or from the philippines

anyway, to answer your question about engine mods...

the 7afe's 1.8L displacement doesn't allow it to rev as hard as it's 1.6L 4af/4afe and 4ag/4age brothers so even with the blacktop head, you'll have a hard time running with the b16a. now there are 2 solutions for this. either get the 7afe to rev harder or use a 4age block. to make your 7afe rev harder, take the block to someone who knows how to "blueprint" an engine. this means lightening and balancing all the moving parts within the engine block (pistons, connecting rods, crankshaft, flywheel, etc). you'll be surprised at how much quicker your engine gets into the high revs... and with the 20v 4age's vvt kicking in at 6k+ rpm, you'd really want to get into those high rpm's as early as possible.

ok so lets say you've gotten that out of the way and you now reach your vvt range at just about the same time the civic's vtec kicks in... problem is, the vvt's kick might not be enough to pull you ahead of the civic. this is because of the b16's super aggresive cam profile. when that b16's vtec kicks in, the cam just goes wild unlike with the 20v which has a much tamer cam profile. now, you could either get an aftermarket camshaft (HKS would be a good choice with up to 272 cam duration and 8.1mm lift) or you could make your stock cams more aggressive by installing an adjustable cam gear (again, i suggest HKS or if you're trying to lessen the cost, have one fabricated by a machine shop. that's what i did.) or you could always do both (adjustable cam gear on an aftermarket camshaft)

now all of that plus the basic intake/headers/exhaust mods wil surely pull you ahead of a slightly modded b16 but not in a quarter mile. you'll smoke him on the highway. if you want to beat a b16 in a quarter mile, the 7age BT is not the engine for you. go for the 4age 16v high-horse (it came right after the 4age 16v t-vis) and just do the basic i/h/e mods to it.

other mods you might want to consider are opening up your throttle intake (get rid of that restrictive air box and use individual velocity stacks instead) and installing an air/fuel mixture controller.


bottomline is, the 20v was never designed for quarter mile performance. it was designed to perform well at the top end which makes it a good circuit engine.

hope this helps!

I don't think so. In europe this generation corolla comes with rounded headlight (like Corolla WRC). You should find the front bumper, grille, and headlight in Japan/Taiwan/Hongkong.

for more info try to visit us at www.grupotoyota.com.ph/board. that's where i learned everything i know.

some pics of the mods i was talking about... taken from some of my friends' engine bays...

hks adjustable cam gear


aem adjustable cam gear


open throttle and individual velo stacks

thanks a lot 4 your suggestion bro. BTW as far as I know before, 7A-GE 20 v (balcktop) is better than 4A-GE 20 since it has bigger displacement. Is it correct? But I read that you said 4a-ge 16 is better? Is it true? (I haven't any experience driving Toyota G head engine) ^_^. Thanks

while it is true that there really is no replacement for displacement when it comes to engine power... it is also true that, stock to stock, a higher displacement engine will rev slower than a smaller displacement engine simply because the internals are heavier and therefore harder to move. so its no longer a question of how much power is produced. it's a matter of how fast it can deliver that power. if you plan to defeat a b16 (a very hard task if you ask me as it delivers power really quickly) you're going to have to get to the higher rpm's as fast as it does. therefore a lighter revving and/or lesser displacement engine is required. so definitely it's going to have to be a 1600 or a blueprinted 1800. or even better, a blueprinted 1600. hehehehe!

with the 4age's... the question of 16v or 20v can only really be settled by asking yourself - where do you want the powerband to be? if you want it at the power rpm's (faster off the line) go for the 16v. that's ideal for a quarter mile drag. if you want to smoke a b16 on the highway and want the powerband higher up the rpm range, go for the 20v. the b16 should leave you behind a couple car-lengths off the line but you should start catching up once he reaches 3rd (the stock b16 tranny 3rd gear ratio sucks, as with it's final ratio) and pull away all the way up to 5th. don't get the 6-speed BT tranny. it's 3rd gear is just as useless as the b16's.

is it really a 4g93 that you want to beat? not too familiar with all the mitsu engines but i know there's a 4g63, a 4g63t, and a 4g92. never heard of the 4g93. anyway, if you do all the mods mentioned above (the ones to beat the b16) you should have no problem beating the 4g63 or the 4g92. the 4g63t is an entirely different discussion all together because it's force-fed. you're going to need either a completely un-streetable NA 16v 4age or a boosted 20v or 3sgte (yes, the 3sgte fits the corolla ) with mad front suspension and at least advan ad07 tyres. advan adr32s if possible.

4g93 is 1800 cc DOHC 130 hp in stock, while the one i wanna beat is about 170 hp. ^_^. So difficult since my corolla only produce 132 hp at engine (dynotested).

4g63t is in higher class. too tough to be defeated. hahaha.

oh! which mitsu model does the 4g93 come from? time for some more research... hehehe!

no way, dude. the displacement addition more than outweighs the time it takes in reving the motor up because of the increase in power (torque) and through the power band. remember, torque is what gets the car moving.

the best choice would be a balanced high displacement motor which means the 7A-GE is best.

yes, in theory a bigger engine would be better in terms of overall performance. but satyr wants to outrun a b16 and the 7a block just isn't up to the challenge. with a BT-head 20v 7age, by the time the VVT kicks in the b16 civic would be well within it's vtec range already and would be pulling away real quick. unless of course the 7a block is blueprinted. in theory, yeah a bigger engine would produce more power and torque but through our experience, the 7a block just doesn't deliver that power fast enough. the 7afe was, after all, designed to deliver power smoothly. not rapidly. if you're after power and torque through displacement in a toyota, go for the 3s block or the 2zz block. those were designed for rapid power delivery. or you could always just bore out and blue-print a 4a block. the ST block is best because the con-rods are thicker than the BT's. the BT block's internals were lightened (ultra thin con-rods and bolts) and is very very scary to fool around with.

I've always planned to get a 4AGZE, then convert it to a 4AGTE. Recently, someone mentioned that a turboed 4AGE would be a better platform because of some design difference between it and the 4AGZE. Can anyone shed some light on which one will have the greater power potential?

Also, I know the 3SGTE would have more hp than the 4A motors stock, but which would ultimately have the best potential?

ok, about the 4agte, it's a matter of wether you want max torque concentrated within a narrow powerband or evenly distributed torque in a wide powerband. the GZE head (without the help of the supercharger) would deliver power higher up the rpm range. this is because it doesn't need the power in the lower rpm's once the supercharger is put into play. the SC takes care of low end torque and once the SC loses it's effectivity (around 5k rpm) the head takes over and takes the powerband all the way to 7k or 8k. if you turbo a gze, all the power becomes concentrated at the top end. even more so if you turbo a 20v 4age because it delivers even more power at the top end. but then that'd be complicated since you'd have to lower the compression a bit by using gze pistons and/or a thicker head gasket. for the widest, most optimized powerband, i'd go for a turbo 16v 4age or a twin-charged gze (SC plus turbo. yep, it's possible).<br />
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also, between the 4a and the 3sgte... the 3sgte definitely has more potential but that's only in terms of engine performance. now if you're talking about putting it into a corolla... installation is fairly easy with both with the 3sgte only slightly more complicated. the problem starts when you try to get the 3sgte off the line. with inadequate suspension and tyres, you'd still be wheelspinning while the other car is already pulling away. it's just too much power for the body. what my friend did was designed and tuned the turbo system and the engine to deliver much less torque and power at low rpms just to get the car rolling first before delivering all the power it can give. then he just prays that the the engine's 200+ horses (never dynoed so we don't know exactly how much) would be enough to make up for the time he lost off the line. i think he did this via an SAFC-2 and a boost controller.<br />
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some pics of what i've been talking about...<br />
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3sge (without the t) in an ae92<br />
<img src="http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/646000-646999/646481_50.jpg" border="0" alt="" /><br />
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3sgte in an ae101<br />
<img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/2lits/57C20042.jpg" border="0" alt="" /><br />
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twin-charged gze<br />
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v371/bodick/DSC03005.jpg" border="0" alt="" />

i think this is starting to become a very interesting technical thread.

maybe we should migrate to the engine/transmission forum....

Well falling away from the technical end of this...I really love those tail lights almost make it look like luxury car on the lines with Mercedes and Audi

to chargerGL: thanks bro

to legobrainboy: I will first try the 7A-GE when I get enough money ^^.N then I will compare the result with my friend's Rolla (AE92) which has 4A-GE 20v blacktop.

Of course I'll post the result here.
About swapping into 3s-gte. I'm sure it won't happen since it cost a lot of money (in my country, 3s-gte's price is almost twice compared to 4a-ge). ^_^ And I think the car itself need to be improved(brakes, suspension,etc) since the engine produces 2x/3x power compared to stock 7A-FE.

yes the 3sgte has more potential performance minded. but the mentioned problem of traction is a fact. cusco has made lower cross arms , control arms , adj. pillow ball mounts , urethane bushings , and stiff stuff to control this problem. but when the swap is a success , the results are ungodly! there is a bigger aftermarket performance bracket for these engines , compared to the 4a line simply b/c it is known as a performance engine.(celica all trac gt4) which is a highly sought after rally platform.

as for the other question of 4A-GE or 4AGZE . if youre gonna turbo or supercharge , the gze head is attached to a "performance" block at the factory . the 4agze has ceramic coated pistons , valves , and internals made for the high heat and high stress of a forced induction engine , the 4age , does not have this feature. also the pistons in the 4agze are designed for lower compression than the pistons in the 4age , hence for forced induction setup.the only other difference i can bring off the top of my head is that all 4a cranks are forged , but the connecting rods in a gze are forged also .

amen to that! that's why most people here in the philippines who opt to turbo their 4age's (instead of getting a complete 4agze to avoid having to re-register the engine number at the land transportation office of the gov't where red tape and bribing is a way of life) swap out their ge con-rods and pistons for gze con-rods and pistons.<br />
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oh and another thing we experienced with the 3sgte when slapped onto a corolla, it tends to limit the car to becoming a drag or wangan car. all that weight up front causes mad understeer. the stuff that has to be done to the front body panels, suspension, tyres, brakes, etc is just too costly to justify. so if you plan on taking your car out on the circuit or touge or autocross course... try to avoid the 3sgte. the last circuit-driven corolla i saw that had a 3sgte was an ae92 with canards up front, fiberglass front fenders and bumper (which were perenially bent out of shape), CF hood (the only part that actually looked nice), ultra-expensive brembos, and a huge ugly-a$$ wing in the back. the car looked horrible (even the owner thought so) but, in shubert's own words... the performance was nothing short of ungodly.

just remember that the 7a block with stock internals can only take up to 8k rpms of abuse while the 4a block with stock internals can take up to 9.5k rpms of regular use. with aftermarket internals you can go as high as 11k and still not worry about f'ing things up. so if dependability and durability is an issue for you... i'd suggest going straight to the 4age. it'll save you the time and hassle of building the 7age only to find out that the 4age is better and/or only to find that the 7age isn't as reliable/durable as you'd hope.

quite honestly i've never heard of a non-problematic 7age setup. most of the people in our club (www.grupotoyota.com.ph/board) who have tried the 7age ran into major problems and/or blew up their engines within a year or so.

in any case, good luck with your project! oh and good choice of platform! imho the ee110/ae111/ae112 chassis is the best handling chassis since the ae86.

let it be known ! the 4afe and 4age blocks are not the same! you can attempt to take a 4afe to 9 1/2 , but steerclear of the engine , cause it might throw a rod and a couple of valves at you for being ignorant. the safe point for 4afe engines IMO is around 6500 stock .i dont know about the 4age , the most ive heard comming out of this engine safely is 8500 rpm, with 7000 being the hmmmmmmmm .......................... good enough mark. i would like to see spoon do a 4age , any model (BT 20V, ST20V , 4AGZE , 4AGE 16V , AND 4AGTZE)it would definitly be a sight to see , a BT screaming safely at 12,000 rpm's.<img src="http://vvti.net/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" />

hahaha! yeah my bad. when i said "4a block", i was referring to the 4age. completely forgot about the fe. i'll see if i can find the pictures of the 4afe that through pieces of the #3 and #4 con-rods out the side of the block and into the radiator after a 5k rpm standing rev. it was a botched up rebuild.

yeah a spoon bt would be sweet. TODA already does 12k-rpm 20v's. too bad the formula atlantic series chose to retire the 14k rpm-revving FA-4ag as their official engine and chose to go with a new mazda engine instead. would've been interesting if they chose to stick with toyota and upgrade to the 20v or a zz engine. man, can you imagine what sort of music a formula atlantic 20v will make at 14k++ rpm?!?

the 4g93 comes out of a mirage/lancer. i used to have the USDM SOHC model. pretty slow if you ask me. but i heard the DOHC was faster

i know i dont like to take my 4afe past 6000 , the valve train dont sound too promising at that velocity. i had another ae102, it was a prizm though, i mistreated that 4afe bad! it had top end work done , but the bottom end was weak . i constantly took all gears to rev limiter! it would have lasted if i didnt run it out of synthetic oil , then refill it with conventional oil . yep whiped out bearings , wrist pins , you name it.

i know i dont like to take my 4afe past 6000 , the valve train dont sound too promising at that velocity. i had another ae102, it was a prizm though, i mistreated that 4afe bad! it had top end work done , but the bottom end was weak . i constantly took all gears to rev limiter! it would have lasted if i didnt run it out of synthetic oil , then refill it with conventional oil . yep whiped out bearings , wrist pins , you name it.

to igorien2k: The one which I wanna beat is heavily tuned DOHC 4g93. It produce about 170-180 hp. &gt;_&lt;

to legobrainboy: Relax bro, i'm not a rev maniac since I will satisfied with 7000-8000 rpm redline. I'll build the Rolla for daily use, but somehow can defeat B16A ^_^

to shubert: For turbo setup in the future (7A-GTE), maybe I'll use gze piston to decrease the compression. What do you think?

to all: By using 4a-ge 20v head, How much compression I'll get? Is it just the same with which type of 4a-ge I use(silvertop/blacktop)?

oh yeah .. I almost forgot.

that Lancer 4g93 performance:
0-100km/h : 7,2 sec (with vericom)
0-1/8 mile :9,6 sec
0-1/4 mile :15,3 sec

I'm not sure, maybe my Rolla 1/4 mile time only about 18 seconds.
(Only 132 hp 7A-FE) ^_^

This make me a bit confuse. Which one is better? 7A-FTE or 7A-GE 20 valve?