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Engine Check engine light on... EDIT: p0440, p0441, p0446 related

Discussion in 'Powertrain' started by shubert_ae102, Jul 15, 2007.

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    shubert_ae102 New Member

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    yes , the o2 sensor will rob gas mileadge like crazy , and will not always throw a code. speaking of o2 sensors , i just changed mine today! $63 and the one i pulled out is the original nippon denso , w/ 170kmiles baby! i dont think its supposed to be white like that though. but it is 13 years old ,and has 170,000 miles on it.!
    [IMG]
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    jcrwzr Member

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    Check engine light on... EDIT: p0440, p0441, p0446 related

    ok some of you guys already know but my CEL (check engine light) turned on recently. i just got a new catalytic converter a few months ago which fixed a p0420 problem. i'm starting to think i might have a bad o2 sensor.

    question: will a bad o2 sensor result in poor milage? i'm experiencing that right now. real bad milage!!

    i haven't pulled the CEL code yet. but i'll keep you all informed. i'll do it by monday. i hope i don't have another cat problem.
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    daniel2002p Guest

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    yes it may result, see if you have any pending codes onthe ECU, some codes dont trip the light if they didnt hapen enough times, just get them codes that are pending checked

    D
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    eddy Well-Known Member

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    eddy Well-Known Member

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    What kind is your new sensor and was it really jyst $63? Coz I changed my CatCon recently and I had that darn CEL keeping on and on and on. It never threw a bad O2 sensor code, but it was always on saying Cat below eff. I switched to 93 octance gas for a tank and voila, all codes cleared. But anyways, when the muffler shop guy said it was the O2 sensor, I found out that OEM sensor is $189 a piece! Freakin bonkers!
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    jcrwzr Member

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    Check Engine Light Code Update!!

    Here are the codes I pulled from my car:

    1. P0440
    EVAP Emission
    Control System
    Malfunction

    2. P0441
    EVAP Emission
    Control System Purge
    Flow Fault

    3. P0446
    EVAP Emission
    Control System Vent
    Circuit Malf

    4. P0440
    EVAP Emission
    Control System
    Malfunction
    PENDING

    5. P0441
    EVAP Emission
    Control System Purge
    Flow Fault
    PENDING

    6. P0446
    EVAP Emission
    Control System Vent
    Circuit Malf
    PENDING

    P = powertrain codes
    P0 = generic SAE

    I went to Autozone and borrowed the Actron OBDII
    $160 deposit and full refund if returned.
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    falnfenix Well-Known Member

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    yours is oxidized...should have pulled it out well before now.
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    jcrwzr Member

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    thanks for your speculative help! i'm going to kragen in a minute to get the code pulled. but yeah if any of you remember... i'm the one who makes 400 miles per tank on my corolla! and now my gas gauge is way below the empty line and i've only done 330 miles! that's aprox 10-12 dollars of wasted money
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    jcrwzr Member

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    this is redic.
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    jcrwzr Member

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    do you remember which codes you had? please be specific. you seem knowledgealbe in this area. i might consider PM'ing you if this goes on, but which codes did you have? i heard that the 3 codes i got tend to turn on simultainiously. if you had just one of them turn on, then we're not on the same page.

    you say "similar" in a generic and in-passing way. did you have the same codes? just being clear... that's all. i want to know what goes on before any service is done to my car. thanks dude.
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    eddy Well-Known Member

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    Check this thread out dude, post 14 and later

    http://vvti.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13037

    The dealership guy did not give me all the codes on the bill, but I'm pretty sure he talked about some of the codes you listed and I can certainly remember codes 1 and 3 on your list. I'm guessing if you take it to a good mech or the dealership, they will most likely ask you to get a new evap canni, coz fixing a broken canni is not worth it, no matter what went bad inside of it. BUT, you know, I am fairly new so I might be wrong, I'm just speculating like others...lol. Just trying to help,

    heres a full list of all codes, just in case you wanna look up what my codes meant...

    http://vvti.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13278
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    DrunkSaru Unsuspecting Poo Flinger

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    wow thats a lot of errors. Last time I had something like that, I just manually cleared the codes and never came back and found out later that my ecu got a bit of a surge which causes similar errors. I know you said your car was running fine until that one day. have you tried clearning your codes to see if they come back?
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    eddy Well-Known Member

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    Looks like you need a new evap cannister. Mine went out a few weeks ago, and I had similar codes. And yeah, I took it to the dealership, coz theres no aftermarket evap cannisters available. I too, experienced terrible gas mileage and the codes had nothing to do with the O2 sensors at all.
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    jcrwzr Member

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    you did that on your corolla? or your subaru?
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    falnfenix Well-Known Member

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    are you SURE there are no evap canisters available? how did the dealership get them, if they're not around?

    Rockauto.com carries them - they're listed as vapor canisters under emissions (once you search for your vehicle).
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    DrunkSaru Unsuspecting Poo Flinger

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    GSE21tuner Formerly rollatuner110. Representing AZLexus.club

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    They call up junkyards that have them and then charge you full price for them. Damn stealerships.
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    eddy Well-Known Member

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    eddy Well-Known Member

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    Mine is a Chevy Prizm, and all parts sold by ACDelco are pretty close to the dealership prices on rockauto.com.
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    GSE21tuner Formerly rollatuner110. Representing AZLexus.club

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    Well the dealership may sell you new evap canisters, but there have been other cases when they sell refurbished used pieces at full price.
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    eddy Well-Known Member

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    falnfenix Well-Known Member

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    huh? Delco parts are much, much more expensive than RA. i should know - i sold the damned things.
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    GSE21tuner Formerly rollatuner110. Representing AZLexus.club

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    Hey Jon, now its my gf's turn to fail smog. Do you know of any places that sell cheap cats? I got a mechanic to clear the CEL and then smogged it asap before it could pop back on. It passed. Now I just need to make a permanent fix.
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    jcrwzr Member

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    ooooooookay!!! i did a smog check cuz, by the state of california, i am due for a smog check! i get it checked, and i FAIL!!! everything passes! the visual check, pressure checks, O2 and CO gas check. everything passes except that there was a history of engine check lights improperly turned off by either a scan tool or by unplugging the battery.

    well, before i took my car in for smog, i took out my CAI and installed my stock air box with resonator pipe and all. this is to pass the visual. besides, before i put my car on the dyno, the smog dude had to ask and say, "you have one of "those" imports. i'm not going to smog check you if you don't have a cat, and if you have bolt-ons under the hood. lets take a look" well that passes.

    like i said, everything passes except for CEL or MIL history. and the smog machine cannot proceed with the smog check. LAME!!!!!

    So the smog dude said, "here's what you need to do. wait for the CEL to turn on again, and consult a mechanic to fix the problem. if you don't get a CEL within the next few fillups, come back for the retest and we'll see what we can do."

    well, i've driven 500 miles since the smog check and there's been no CEL whatsoever!

    the codes for my car were again,

    1. P0440
    EVAP Emission
    Control System
    Malfunction

    2. P0441
    EVAP Emission
    Control System Purge
    Flow Fault

    3. P0446
    EVAP Emission
    Control System Vent
    Circuit Malf


    i think i fixed the CEL!!! serious!! the light has not came on since i put back my stock airbox. and i think i was having a collapsing purge vent hose when i had the CAI. and that solved code 2 listed above P0441. no hoses are needed to attatch the purge control valve to the stock air box, meaning there are no weak hoses to collapse. am i on to somthing here? i doubt i have a broken evap cansiter or bad hoses coming from the evap canister.
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    jcrwzr Member

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    supertuning exhausts in van nuys.

    ask for koko
    phone: 818-988-2335
    call him for the address. i don't know the address and i only remember how to get there if i'm actually driving there. i'm useless for directions.

    anyway that's were i got my cat fixed. i don't know how much the cat replacement costed me, i had other exhaust things done to my car.

    BUT... make sure when you go there be exactly clear with what you want. or else he'll give you the works and put on a fatty cat back system and overhaul and before you know it, he'll charge you an arm and a leg for something you don't want. so be clear b/c his specialty is performance exhausts.
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    GSE21tuner Formerly rollatuner110. Representing AZLexus.club

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    Alright Jon, thanks.
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    GSE21tuner Formerly rollatuner110. Representing AZLexus.club

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    It's about time he accepted your car to be smogged. I never had that problem with the visual inspections area. We should fabricate a heat shield to cover up the Forza header
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    jcrwzr Member

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    THIS IS AN UPDATE
    *Warning this is lengthy but might be of usefull information if you're failing smog checks*

    OK Smog check is done and I passed. The check engine light is off for now, but I'll keep an update if it turns on again.

    I've been having a problem with my EVAP system. I was pulling codes p0440, p0441, and p0446. all EVAP codes. I knew I was in for some trouble because, all the other forums I'm reading/doing research are showing people left and right being fast-handed and bullsh*tted by crooked mechanics. While all this is happening, I have to smog check my corolla. The California DMV was nice enough to give me the papers waaaaaayyyy ahead of time to reregister my vehicle. Mind you it is August 1st. The DMV papers were sent to my house first week of July, and my registration isn't due by September. So I have a problem. Major EVAP problem that might cost me around $600-$800 to fix and to renew registration with a smog check. After pulling the codes, I clear them with the Actron OBD2 scanner from Autozone. (It cost me a $170 deposit and full refund upon return of the scanner). The codes don't come on for several hundreds of miles. maybe 700 miles. That 1 and 3/4 gas tanks.

    So first matter of business was to put back my stock air box. This included taking off and unplugging the battery to make room to take off the Cold Air Intake. At taht time I was under the impression that unplugging the battery also cleared any engine check light codes. Afterwards I sent it to the smog shop.

    At the smog shop for the first time, the tech checks under the hood and sees that the car is visually fine. (The tech didn't realize I have an aftermarket header! I'm in the clear **wipes of sweat*)

    The tech runs the smog machine and the car is on the dyno. The results: The car passes every O2 test, and gas cap test. But my corolla fails. Here's where I am totally confused. At first I understood the tech by him saying that I had an engine check light history that wasn't cleared properly. The tech says I unplugged the battery and I'm not allowed to do that before a test. The tech then says, if I'm having an engine check light, drive around for another week and if the light doesn't come on, come back.

    I take 2 weeks!!! and 2 weeks later the check engine light turns on. I finally make some time to get under my car and see that a hose connected/related to my EVAP system is cut and disconnected. It was a good thing that there was extra slack on the EVAP hose. I took whatever slack was left and I plugged the hose back and clamped it tight. Plugging the hose in didn't clear the engine check light. So I go back to autozone rent the OBD2 scanning tool and clear the codes.

    I call the smog shop and I tell the tech the whole story. I told him I fixed the problem and that I cleared the engine check light codes with an OBD2 scanning tool. The tech continues on and says, "If you just cleared the Check engine light, you need to drive more than 50 miles to 100 miles so that the car can reset itself. If the car's OBD isn't fully reset, then my smog check machine can't properly do a test on your car and you will fail again."

    Luckily that day I had a lot of driving to do. I put on about 65 miles that afternoon right after I called the smog shop. Still no engine check light. The next morning I wake up early and I drive the car about 30 miles before heading to the smog shop. STILL NO ENGINE CHECK LIGHT!! YAY! around 8am at opening time, I tell the tech (a different and younger guy) I need to do a retest. I show the tech my papers, and the first thing the tech does, is plug my car into the obd2 smog check machine to see if my car has been fully reset. 20 seconds later, we're green! the car's OBD is fully reset and can now function cooperatively with the smog machine.

    I ask the tech, to explain what happened with my last smog check. He explains that all cars 1996 and newer, have computers called OBD2 On Board Diagnostic 2ND edition/series. He states,

    "Today's smog test machines need to be able to fully cooperate with the car's OBD to make sure to the fulest extent that your car's vital signs are working. The reason you failed smog is because you reset your car's OBD by either unplugging your battery, or clearing the code with an OBD2 scan tool. You then came in to the smog shop with a partially reset OBD. That's why the other tech told you to drive around a few miles before coming back for the retest. That driving around is what's known as a drive cycle. In general, from the minute you turn on your car to the time you turn off your car is a drive cycle. Most American cars require 5 drive cylces. Most Japanese cars require 50-100 or more miles. In general, your drive cycle can consist of your everyday normal driving. But if you're the slow guy just trying to get from point A to point B, your drive cycle should include several degrees of acceleration, low gear accel. high gear accel. aprox 5 mins of idling (red lights), engine braking (slowing down without the brakes), and putting load on the electrical system (using the radio, cig lighter, A/C defrosters). Putting load on your engine makes your computer think, and do it's calculations to see if the car is running fine. If the car wasn't running fine, then the service light or check engine light would turn on.

    The tech takes out his flashlight and inspects the engine bay, and sees my header. He says, I have to take them out. No C.A.R.B. stamp or papers, no test! I barter with the tech and I tell him, "but my car passes the pressure tests, the O2 tests, and everything else. All I had was a OBD reset problem. The tech responds, "I can easily let you do a smog check with the header, but I would be breaking the law. The next thing would be you telling everyone else that I'm lenient and before you know it the clean air act is after me and shutting down my business putting me out of work. You need to find the C.A.R.B. papers, a sticker, or written approval from the manufacturer that this header is C.A.R.B approved or else you have to put back your stock manifold. Otherwise I can't let your car on the dyno.

    I go back home and of course there is no C.A.R.B. approval for my header. The header is probably by manufacturer's specification a race exhaust, not 50 state legal. My only thing left to do is intall my stock header. wooot woot as I say so sarcasticly.

    After the stock header is installed I head back to the smog shop. The tech (still the same younger man) does the visual check and I pass. I also do the drive inspection, O2 readings, pressure checks, and I pass. I pass with flying colors.

    The tech says, "I know you're into import modifications. To save yourself time, put back all stock hardware, and if you're running into any check engine light codes, clear them, or have them diagnosed, and perform drive cycles. If the engine check light doesn't turn on within those drive cylces, then your car should be okay for our smog machine to cooperate with your car's OBD. Otherwise, an OBD system that isn't fully reset and operating normally will immediatly stop the smog machine from continuing the tests. You might see some cars at smog places idling for long periods of time, that's probably becasue the car was just started and gives off for example a "catalyst not ready" that will trip the smog test machine."

    After all that usefull information, and passing smog, I was good to go.

    I'll update this thread if my Check engine light turns on again. and I'll post details and pics. Thanks for reading!
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    eddy Well-Known Member

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    Can you get away by heat wrapping your shiny header? JW

    Anyways, is all this such a pain in all the states or just CA? When I registered my car in March, I did'nt even have to take an emmissons test, and honestly, I don't even know what a smog test is, coz no one ever spoke of it here in IN.
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    jcrwzr Member

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    [IMG]
    i hope this picture shows why i was getting EVAP codes.



    I heard smog tests are strict in CA, MA, and NY. someone correct me if i'm wrong. what year is your prizm? are you the original owner or was it bought second hand?

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