Engine Can this LSD work?

Can this LSD work?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Toyo...003092106QQcategoryZ33731QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I've always wanted to do the 4age blacktop swap and the 6spd manual for it cause of the lsd. Any chance this kit fitting into the c52 corolla tranny?

toyotaspeed would know.... get ahold of him

Yeah it sure would, it's for the C52. That's a REAL LSD It's a good price... but is it used?

I'm contactinga dealer to see about a brand new Kaaz 1.5way LSD with full warranty for around $700. Might be better than buying it used, i'll let u know when he replys.

Ah, no no, do not get a 1.5 for a FWD. Very bad. You want an ATB, like the one in that post.

Since the ebay lsd is OEM toyota I assume its a crappy slow reacting viscous type.. which is still better than nothing. But isn't running a automatic torque biasing LSD as good as running a open differential when you lose traction on one wheel? In fact I hear that is the easiest way to kill a torsen lsd.

I dont think having a 1.5way is so bad, The Kaaz has a adjustable locking % for deceleration and gives instant lockup traction during cornering. Also they are used by many Honda road racers and I hear they make LSD's for Spoon Sports, so it cant be all that bad for FWDs

No, an ATB is exactly what you want. Think about what happens when you are going around a corner and suddenly BOTH front wheels lock up so that they are TURNING AT THE SAME SPEED. You'll understeer right off the road. That's why they use that type of LSD for RWD cars that drift, because they WANT the rear tires to loose traction. In that case it's okay because you'll oversteer, but with a FWD it's BAD NEWS. Same goes for the deceleration.

An ATB tranfers power to the wheel with traction, it does not "lock" the wheels together like a conventional LSD.

-Doc

Thats the thing, a clutch type lsd does not "suddenly" lock. It is active during acceleration and decrease locking % during decel (on 1.5's). Traditional out in out cornering line suggest that you throttle off and decelerate before the corner then ride it into the apex, you would not accelerate until at least you past the apex and se a clear line. If you like going full throttle through a corner, then I'd see why this would be a problem.

If anything, a clutch type is more of a competition oriented setup than ATB is. As I pointed out before many Honda FF road racers do use them and claim they are better and more predictable than ATB types.

Hmmm, don't know much what else to say. I've never tried it personally, I'm just going by what I've learned through the years. Try it and let us know.

thats good because i'm out of things to say too.. goodnight.

jspex wins !

that's good debating guys.

well I'm happy just because my question got answered and then some. I'm sure I'll be getting this sometime for my car. After working as a mechanic and having all the tools and knowledge to do big things like motor and tranny, I'm hooked on gettin all performance stuff on the car. I'm done with looks and its all go fast things from here.

i hope someday to have the tools/knowledge/facility aswell. im gonna start goin on part runs for shops and take it from there lol

I'll kick in my $0.02 on the LSD topic, just from my previous experience with them.

Most OEM LSD are the viscous coupling type or helical gear type -> sometimes called a Torsen LSD (Quaife - is a company that generally is well know for these) or called an ATB (Automatic Torque Biasing) LSD. These LSDs work by the helical planet gears pushing against the differential housing at a time when the two output shafts are turning at different speeds (example turning) - causing the axles to "lock" together. Note it needs torque for it to work (many cases, if you are stationary with one wheel with poor traction and one with good traction, it will behave like an open differential, just sits there and spin. OEM get around this behavior with electronic traction control - ie. using the brakes to slow the one down and get them to turn at the same speed. This type is the most popular type for road use - very smooth transitions, progressive operation, no special fluid requirements - perfect for OEM use.

Most aftermarket LSD are clutch or plate types - like Cusco, Kaaz, Mugen, etc. Which can be preloaded (different ramp profiles and spring loads) and be in a one, 1.5, or two way configuration. Very popular in drag racing circles - has a strong lockup that is generally not quite as smooth in engagement as ATB types - but does not suffer the same fallbacks (does not need torque for operation). Some have mentioned that these can engage very harshly - but that could be function of proper break in and use of the specific type of fluid with the right friction properties. Some type and use regular gear oil and end up cooking the clutches or wear them unevenly. Smooth break in process with the correct gear oil - clutch types can be very drivable and retain better lock up behavior than the helical types.

So in a sense - it depends on what you want. Smooth operation, road course, daily driving > helical type. More performance oriented, drag, racing > clutch type. Kind of like going with lowering springs or coil overs - what you really want from the car.

This is from playing around with my old BB Mopar - now running a Detroit locker - acts like an open diff in the corners and full lock when straight (well at least in theory - people who ride in the car have different opinions - ie. runs like $hit in the corners). Before that - had a Sure-Grip (clutch type as OEM - almost as good as the locker, but burned up because of oil contamination) that was replaced by a new Truetrac (helical type - not a strong locker, but acted like an open rear end until you stomped the gas - smooth as glass.)

Dude,
Thanks guys for the discussion! Its so exciting to learn about how these parts really work and what goes on with them installed, than to just look at them on a website and say "ok cool I want that"
Thanks for the lesson!

:wstupid :werd :hesaid

Great post bud!

toyotas use clutch type stock. depending on clutch thickness and orientation lockup can typically be "tuned" in the aftermarket clutch types. oem ones like in the corolla gts and supra are super pleasant for daily driving and lockup real nice like in competition. this lsd youre looking at will be plenty good for your ae.

look up www.phantomgrip.com they have a listing for corollas!!!!!!! nice price too!

That phantomgrip is kinda funky looking. Looks like a block that fits between the spider gears in an open differential that is spring loaded. I'm guessing it should work like a helical type LSD.

Really, a clutch type as OEM - didn't know that. I assumed that they used the helical type LSD, since there was a available TRD part that was also helical. But I don't remember if that was RWD or FWD platform. Last Toyota that I rode in that had LSD reacted kind of slowly, you would expect the clutch type to react more quickly. Still good to know.

Thanks Dr. Tweak With all the cool stuff you are doing - you're inspiring me to setup my garage again (that and this damned mid-life crisis B.S. ).

what toyota was that? and seriously.... what situation were you in that you think it reacted slowly? i clutch type locks up under accel, you know how they work. lockup happens, its the aggressiveness that is the difference. the slow reacting diffs are the viscous type diffs, oem in the 350z. the liquid inside reacts when one tire is spinning more than the other and changes state to gum up the assembly "locking" it up. even the stock lsd in my gts has instant lockup under accel.... and its 21 years old.

clutch type can be tuned for aggressiveness....
viscous needs time to react....
and helical/torsen needs torque to bind it up....

edit: sorry.... the mk4 poopra uses a torsen diff stock....

holy christ.... and here i thought i knew about cars

things to research: LSD's

The Phantom Grip (also known as "Phony Grip") is not a real LSD, and a lot of people that I know have had bad experiences with them.

In all of the Toyotas that I know of, the only LSD that comes stock in a FWD is the helical type, the RWD ones are normally the clutch type.

I've heard ATB's being compared to the torque converter in automatic transmissions. The simple fact that it opens up when 1 wheel has zero load makes it not the ideal LSD for competition purposes.

Clutch Type do require a bit more maintence such as thicker oil as with the Kaaz LSD and a break in period for the LSD to react more smoothly.. Also it would require a rebuild or clutch pack replacement about every 100k or so depending on how you drive. For that very reason I would recommend Kaaz over Cusco or any other brand.

I am not exactly sure what LSD is that listed in the ebay auction, to my knowledge most OEM LSD is a crappy viscous (as seen in cars like JDM GSR, SiR and Sentra SER SPEC V), the seller does claim its a ATB, and Turbo4ag say the 85-87 Corolla GTS has a clutch type.. So what would toyota do.. hmmm.

Typically I would rather spend extra on a LSD with a warranty, $500 is not exactly cheap for a OEM LSD thats been used an unknown mile.

The one in that auction is an ATB.

quaffe makes an LSD for C series trannies..... they're usually listed as "FWD Corolla GTS".... which is *basically* the same trannny as all FWD corollas from the 80's to 97.... last i looked they were around $950

and to think... i sold an LSD e58 for $200

Or so he says. I wouldn't really trust descriptions based on a ebay seller. I don't remember any C seies transaxle with a OEM LSD to begin with.

I'm quite certain just by looking at it that it is. It looks just like a quiafe, anyway.

-Doc

I'll take your word for it, but i'd do some research about the LSD before dropping 5bills.

definately a torsen diff.... look at the planetary gears in the carrier

a clutch type you can see springs and clutches through the carrier assembly....
and i assume the viscous diff is totally sealed

just thought i should throw this in it might help. how the differential work
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm