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Engine 1ZZFE Wiseco 11:1 pistons

Discussion in 'Powertrain' started by jcrwzr, Mar 19, 2007.

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    jcrwzr Member

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    i was reading on a celica forum that the 1zz-fe is a hard motor to build NA. without increasing the displacement (bored out) and by just building the head alone to its maximum potential you can get only 160-180 flywheel hp. but don't take my word, i'm just recalling what i read in a celica forum.

    one more time: 160-180 flywheel hp NA. no turbos or displacement changes.
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    GSE21tuner Formerly rollatuner110. Representing AZLexus.club

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    1ZZFE Wiseco 11:1 pistons

    I'm curious as to know how much gain can be expected from high compression pistons. I'm sure with just the pistons there would hardly be enough noticeable gain without proper tuning. That might require new adjustable cams, a piggyback ecu, and possibly a new high output fuel pump and injectors. How much power do you guys think the 1ZZFE is capable of pushing out fully naturally aspirated? I don't know if anyone has attempted to do so before. Civics and integras are hardcore tuned to be naturally aspirated so I'm sure the corolla can be too.
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    rainbow_star New Member

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    160hp at crank is really possible, but I think it's hard for 1zz to go to 180hp NA with just cam and high compression pistons and piggyback.

    Here are just my opinion, please dont quot on me. :p
    What's the compression rate on 2zz? It 11.5:1, it's greater than the 1zz high compression pistons that we mentioned here by 0.5 already.

    How about the cams? I bet the cams for 1zz is no more duration (is it how to call it?) than the fast cams in 2zz. Even if it's equal to 2zz's fast cams, it's not street able. You don't have any lowend at all.

    Oh, I don't think we can rev the 1zz to 8200rpm with just cams and pistions and piggyback.
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    GSE21tuner Formerly rollatuner110. Representing AZLexus.club

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    160-180 isn't bad considering its not force fed. It wouldn't decrease engine life as fast.
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    The Return of D1zzy Guest

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    I'm attempting this same setup and then hit it with a two stage. I'm curious too but anything will beat 120-140 at the crank if you can get 170-190 at the wheels. on top of that I have a 98 and put it somewhat of a diet. I'm at 2324 but I got the car down to 2275 and that should help. Let me know what you find out? I know that we needs cams and some port work and also a good intake and exhaust. a Standalone is going to help alot and make this thing somewhat tame. but it;ll be less expensive to build then a supercharge or turbo'ed setup.
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    The Return of D1zzy Guest

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    Also I would like to mention that boring it out also hekps to unshroud the valves which along with the extra CC's and the rapid flow of the mixture into the chambers adds to the ram effect.
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    DrunkSaru Unsuspecting Poo Flinger

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    just out of curiousity, wont it be easier to just spend the time and money towards putting in a 2zz and getting custom parts fabricated that way rather than looking for parts that would fit a 1zz and NA tuning? or is it just the want of being able to say that you have a tuned 1zz?
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    GSE21tuner Formerly rollatuner110. Representing AZLexus.club

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    I posted this in another thread but, OBX sells adjustable cam gears for the 98+ corolla for a much more affordable 129.00
    Unfortunately the their site is down for construction. The product code is BX206.

    And how much gain do you think is achievable by just 11:1 compression pistons alone with no tuning? Just direct replacement.

    And as for uniqueness in having a NA 1ZZFE. That's probably the reason why I want to do it. Plus I'm curious to see how it turns out. I'm running out of bolt-on modifications and I don't want to reduce the life of the motor by force feeding it. I might consider an underdrive pulley along with the new pistons.
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    juniorn2 Guest

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    damn i think thats kinda wack 11.1 when i had my civic i had a 12.5 compression and it moved i ran a 13.7 all motor but of course i had mad other bolt on's but if you want to see a diffrence get either 12.1 or 11.8 then u can see the diffrence but you going to need more parts to work with the pistons cuz more compression u going to need to breathe more so intake and headers full exhaust and and a e-manage
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    The Return of D1zzy Guest

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    I think the idea is maybe to move away from an e-manage and more towards a standalone. Also it gives the freedom of playing with the tuning more at higher rpm's needed. also with 98-99 that adj gear would be a great addition. The idea that I have is to have a fast street car and then hit it with a shot to really get things cooking. Also the rod to stroke angle is lower in the 1zz then the 2zz and should boost mid torque alot. The nitrous will make the difference big time.
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    GSE21tuner Formerly rollatuner110. Representing AZLexus.club

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    <a href="http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine1.htm" target="_blank">http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine1.htm</a>
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    GSE21tuner Formerly rollatuner110. Representing AZLexus.club

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    Ok but the bottom line is this:
    How much can you make from pistons alone?
    How much can you make from pistons with cams and tuning?
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    pras211 Guest

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    can someone help this rookee understand compression
    id appricaite the effort or a link to an explanation wud be fine
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    rainbow_star New Member

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    As for adjustable cam gears, it's playing with cam angle and timing right? I think it's what vvti doing int 1zz. I think the camcon are doing the same thing but better.
    Cam gears: same cam angle in all rpm range
    Camcon: different cam angle in all rpm range
    But of coz you have to play with timing too.
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    rainbow_star New Member

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    I can answer your horsepower gain in stock compression vs 11:1 in RICER MATH. (remember, it's Ricer math, you won't get as much as this number here in real life)
    stock 10:1 = 125hp
    so 1:1=12.5hp
    therefore if you have 11:1 you will have 11x12.5=137.5hp

    And once again, it's just RICER MATH and not real at all! It's just for fun. :D :D :D
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    jtweezy New Member

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    our cars use adjustable cam gears?????....Last time I checked with manufacturers they gave me a good reason as to why they dont make adjustable cam gears for 1zz.....It was something about us using a timing chain, well just contact some of them and they will give you the info....But I'm pretty positive we cant use them...as for boosting, best way is to bore out and lower compression, and will be safe for boosting... I've done the turbo thing and have moved on to the 2zzge...and honestly its simpler to swap..
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    pras211 Guest

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    i ment the compression ratios
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    GSE21tuner Formerly rollatuner110. Representing AZLexus.club

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    GSE21tuner Formerly rollatuner110. Representing AZLexus.club

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    LOL3 So it's an estimated less than 15 horsepower for 600 dollars. hmmm I don't think so. haha

    btw I have the early 1zzfe so I don't have vvti interfering with timing. I've heard only the non-vvti 1zzfe's like mine can effectively utilize cam gears.
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    The Return of D1zzy Guest

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    I like rollatuner110 explaination since it's the closest one to understand... the compression ratio is just the mechanical portion of it. The dynamics of it is controlled by the cams. Follow that by your timing curve and adjustable cam gears and your maximizing the pressure. The price of the pistons are like $600. dollars but there's more like labor, gaskets and machining since the rings aren't the gapless ones. which by the way if someone could find a set of Gapless top rings then let me know. Otherwise pistons alone aren't going to give you the power your looking for.
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    jdmgen8 Well-Known Member

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    Monkeywrenchracing.com has everything you need and the guys there are very helpful and knowledgable of the 1zz.
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    FriskyDingo Active Member

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    fastbob72 Active Member

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    Don't know if it helps anyone to picture or visualise it but when it comes to the vvti system you can find countless cam timing diagrams and talk degrees of duration etc but it can often simplify it if you stop thinking of it as variable valve timing and see it as variable valve overlap as essentially that's what's happening.

    I've not actually gone looking for sellers or makers of aftermarket cam phasers for the vvti.

    I've recently bought a 2nd hand Celica head from eBay for £75....... very approx say $120 which deemed insanely cheap as the average price seemed to be £350 and even some stock 2nd hand ones nearly £750 so at a tenth of the price it seemed too good to pass up. Straight off the car as it is, emailed asking if it cracked or warped and told no issues so bought it there n then and had it 5 days later. B
    No alloy rocker cover, manifolds, OCV etc but the cams and cam pulley/phaser was part of it so I was delighted. Course when I took last 2 inlet valves out they were bent, one guide broken other cracked but I knew there would be some wrong as it was just to cheap. lol.

    I've read all I could find since I bought my T22 Avensis 1.8 vvti back in 2013.Have been Ford and Vauxhall man all my life with a little dabble with a few Nissans and Legacy. Bought a cheap 2nd hand 2000 Avensis with the 7A-FE engine. Rather like the P10 Nissan Primera 2.0 eGT I had the Avensis replaced a Japanese built car the Carina E with a UK built car. The Nissan Bluebird 1.8LX I had was a Japanese built car, well equipped, quiet, pretty refined but the steering was heavily powered, the spring rates soft that the steering wheel may have been connected to the door mirrors because there's no feedback, feel or even sense they were part of the same system. The Primera was taut, lively with lots of positive feel from the steering and chassis. I've often read it said Japanese built cars are far superior and in some ways that is true. The seats are soft n bouncy and there's more button, switches and electric this or that to give you something to press or make a light appear on the dash but as for the way they drive get a UK car if you want to be sure it's actually on the road and not levitating 3 feet above like a maglev train.lol

    What was I rambling on about before strolling off at a left hook tangent??? Oh aye, 20 years of tuning blue ovals and griffens alongside an engineering degree and a life long passion to know more meant I knew all about modifying cars/engines etc and when I saw this mint 2002 Avensis sitting there with those wee chrome vvti badges on the wings I checked the oil (my first concern buying any car, hadn't become aware of the 1ZZ specifically yet) I took it for a good run and put it through it's paces one warm and she not only took it but revelled in it which the 7A wasn't capable of. Once back began checking the coolant, is it still clear or bubbling,pressurised and is the oil though still draining to the sump as clean. Have had a number of very hard lessons with oil so it is something I am careful to examine.

    All good, clean engine, no fumes not even when I got him to pump the throttle when it was running again. New tyres, sits well, straight sides and 2 previous elderly owners who kept it pristine except for a rear wheel arch with a slight crease....... £1450?? take 12....no worries, sorted :)

    It'd be few days to clear the cash side of it so google here I come. First big surprise, it was a complete new engine and not a 7A-FE with a kind of VTEC set up. I didn't know much about Toyota beyond Celica, Supras and MR2s and the Avensis GS I'd been running and had no idea there was a vvti version until I saw that one. Next surprise and a disconcerting one was the oil issues which seemed to be more potentially catastrophic with every post I read but the more you read, more you. own one the more you understand what the problem was.

    The third surprise was that the vvti was a completely different system that didn't work much like the VTEC. Somewhat of a poor cousin is the way it is seen by many car folk, all Honda heads and a few Toyota ones too. At first the VTECs high rev limit and the unmissable step up. I'm power like hitting a switch makes it obvious when it kicks in whereas the continously varying nature of the vvti isn't so obvious at all. No kick and little nut screaming going on but when you start to use the engine you start to feel it's influence and you begin to appreciate it's 'analogue' nature compared to the 'digital' on/off early VTECs.

    OK, so it doesn't involve hydraulically switch the cam lobes to a new set alongside with a wilder profile to exploit the higher revs and faster fluid needs of this motor so what then and again I called my best mate google search to seek the knowledge I require now. The vvti in every way is a much more subtle, sophisticated and elegant way of solving the dual needs of one engine with a wide rev range. Dual needs being slower pulsed intake charge and the high speed/volume needs of the high mid to top end. Variable intake manifolds have been tried, the Vauxhall Vectras had a similar system but it never did much for me. The Honda solution was simple and gained a lot of popularity but again a little 2 dimensional.

    Either one profile or the other. Off or on and no in between. Shit the webber 32/34 DGAVs twin choke cards found on the majority of 70s and 80s Ford's with the pinto engine did a similar function in a more progressive manner...... mind you,forget the lottery or Vegas just get in your 1980 Cortina 2.0 GL any winters morning and you were betting your days pay on the sort of variable you just couldn't quantify from the state of the coolant in the automatic choke bimetallic spring to the enthusiasm and state of intoxification of the Essex lad who bodged up your wiring loom when you're pride n joy rattled down the production line.Would it crank, would it do fuck all or would you flood the card, blow some fuses, put the contact breakers out maybe it would start even but will the auto choke and fast idle keep her going or would she die again and again till the battery flattened.Your VTEC was a sure thing you could confidently bet your balls on it starting everytime without fail lol.

    After stripping the head to it's barest secrets I couldn't wait to get at the cam phaser. I'd seen diagrams, photos, read articles and watched several luminaries on you tube give their own opinion on how it works but nothing and I mean nothing beats getting a hold of the damn thing yourself and seeing it for real yourself. First odd thing you find are the 4 bolts that's have 5 sided recesses a bit like Allen key sockets, this was on you tube and he bodged some kind of way of undoing them without the OE Toyota tool that costs you your first born at least. Mine has a four bolts with 5 instead of six sides. Bizarre, never seen the like or at least not that I remember and certainly no 5 sided sockets. Would the multi style sockets fit.... they chew up the sided ones they're meant for if a little too tight. No, there is only one tool, one universal multi tool that has done the job for me on so many occasions when all else fail they'll. be coming in my casket with me and my Fender Strat.If in doubt what tool you should buy and buy well when there isn't an obvious need then buy good quality mole grips. Just had a wee peak over at wiki. Translation...... quality locking pliers/vice gripe. Anyway, from stuck bolts, to holding things in place or a nice handle at the end of a hose that squeezes tight and makes it high pressured or squeezing brake hoses tight to stop the fluid leaking or too. much air getting in when removing calipers. There are a hundred other uses you couldn't possibly imagine right now but without a decent set of molies were beyond sorting. For instance 5 sided bolts which took no little persuading but came undone no problem.

    With the front cover removed the simple mechanical working of the cam phaser becomes beautifully apparent but quickly it also dawns there's next to no room for modifying the phaser from here.I considered grinding away part of one arm to allow a greater arc of adjustment, I mean several degrees maybe 5-7 at most but that would shroud the oil ways that to one side
    . There are oil ways either side of the four armed movable section. Apply oil pressure one side it retards, other side advances, equal pressure nil points. It's amazing how little the degree of adv/ret actual is when you move it by hand.

    Imagine a clock face, from one extreme setting to the other, the full swing is something like from 12 to 1. Or 5 minutes if you like but if you think about it's a movement of 30° or 60° in crankshaft terms. Would simply allowing greater movement mean that the ECU would use it or even recognise it..... now there's another question all together.

    Higher compression ratios are always a good sounding option but are they drawing in the same amount of charge and squeezing it into a smaller combustion chamber under higher pressure or more charge into the same space as before...... and higher pressure or somewhere in between??? Do higher compression pistons create a larger engine size or the same as before??? Sorry, it's semantics really from an old engine engineering head as it's possible to argue exact terms till the cows come home but ultimately it's the volume of charge being compressed into a smaller space under higher pressure that counts. Higher compression, denser charge, higher pressure and temperatures will make cheaper lower octane fuel behave more erratically, unstable. The pressure increase and charge density can impede or even speed up flame front speeds upsetting the ignition advance.

    Ultimately it's all about pressure though, the atmospheric pressure or the percentage that your intake will let you flow that fills the cylinders although to think of the cylinder sucking in air from outside is a common fallacy as, if you remember the old adage from school physics.... pressure always seeks to equalise. It's how N/A engines fill and aircraft wings create lift to make metal objects weighing many, many tons soar like birds. Easy to forget that the need of high pressure to mix and equalise with low pressure is an incredibly powerful force (not a fundamental force but I use force in a more general term before someone points that one out lol). Anyway the higher atmospheric pressure actually pushes into the low pressure area created by the downward motion of the piston.Perhaps all but most research engineers, of which I'm not one, aren't too concerned whether the low pressure inside draws the charge in or the higher pressure outside pushes the chdarge into the cylinder but it is fascinating to get into the real physics of fluid dynamics and airflow simply to get a little insight into how elegant a system the modern spark ignition internal combustion engine is. Don't know about the rest of you but the impending shadow of hybrid motors and driverless cars fills me with dread. Like you Americans always say when someone disapproves of your guns...... they ain't taking my guns and freedom away from me without a fight and all power to that cry of individual liberty well they won't be taking my full fat, non non alcoholic petrol engined wheels from me, ain't no smelly black fumes coming out my tail pip. Well until I start my 26 tonner at work that is. Bastards have to catch me first lol

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