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Engine 1ZZ-FE breathing....

Discussion in 'Powertrain' started by TommyBoy, May 19, 2007.

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    TommyBoy Guest

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    1ZZ-FE breathing....

    Here I was today, bored to death at work and thinking, yet again, about my rolla. Anyways, I've had mine for over 2 years now and putted a good 60,000km in the process. I have a couple of mods on it, mainly suspension works, and I've been thinkin for a while why did toyota stuck us here with the 1zz-fe while everybody has the good toys to play with...

    So I've been upgrading brakes and suspension and looking for someways of getting more pep outta the engine. The only experience I have on toyota is on 4A-GEs, mainly big port and small port. I've been reading a lot for some years about the 1zz-fe and how it is "useless" to try to get some hp outta that block.

    So here I am, sharing some thoughts with you guys

    1- the F head is so much worst that the G head because of the narrow valves included angles... so much true between the good old 4age big port and 4afe....
    50 degres next to 22.5, hell, it's very true indeed that with the old F head the airflow used to make a very big hump up and down the port in order to reach the combustion chamber... now, lets talk about the 4age 20 valves... this one has a narrower included angle of 35 degres and still make impressive amount of power, as for the 1ZZ-FE, it's angle is 33.1 degres.... not that much narrower... and the intake port looks a lot like ours...

    2-...true but you have 3 intake valves instead of 2... I was mesuring valves area for a stock ST and BT which are respectively 1990.56 mm2 and 2048.00mm2... as for the 1ZZ-FE, it is 1869.99 mm2.... if that looks a lot to you, let me tell you that a good old big port has 1401.27 mm2 and that a lot of people can push 200 hp outta those beast and as far as the small port goes, which has the same power figures as the 1ZZ-FE, it only has 1316.01 mm2

    3- as far as exhaust valves goes, their is no competition what so ever 1451.42 for the 1ZZ-FE and 1241.55 for the ST and BT and a little less for the old 16 valves versions

    4- you would think that the cams must be a lot more agressive....
    Duration for intake cam is 240 for the 1ZZ-FE, the same as the big port and 10 degres less that a BT which has 250. Exhaust cam duration for the 1ZZ-FE is 224 and the ST and BT are both 250... not a lot of difference here neither.

    So if we (people stuck with the 1zz-fe) can get rid of the long intake runners, get a good old tune on it using a standalone and get it to REVVVV, hell I do believe that we can make something outta this. Hell the combustion chamber is a lot flatter which eliminate the use of dome shaped piston to get good CR hell we are running the same CR as a small port 4AGE on freaking 87 octane gas without pinging. In other words, everybody knows that a flat top combustion chamber burns better.

    Now a 4AGE BT can get 200 N/A hp outta that 1.6, with a tad more valve area, not even 2 degres of difference. You gotta change the cam shafts and the ECU anywyas to make a BT make that kind of power, In other words.... I don't see how it can be a better breathing engine than the small little izzy, maybe all the bolt-on help it, like the ITB on velocity stack which is a world of difference between our 4 ft long intake plenum but as far as head design, well I don't see a lot, you just have to tune it.... and go the right way...

    I know it's been covered in a lot of thread here and everywhere but hell it seems to me that everybody here is trying the wrong way... how can you possibly want to get more hp out off a 1.8L engine N/A without moving the powerband higher. hell that like trying to turn horse shit into ice cream like some guys here are saying horsepower is a mesure of torque time the rpm, (torque X rpm)/5425 in other words, at 5425, on your engine, you are making the same amount of torque than horsepower so to be able to rise HP some more and staying in the same powerband (peek hp between 5600 and 6000), you have to up the torque of the engine and you are never gonna make 150ish ft/lbs of torque outta any 1.8L n/a engine, hell even a full race 4age pushes out 159 ft/lbs to make 240 hp on 12.7 :1 CR piston but way up their pass 8500 rpm.

    Now on the izzy case... with a good intake and exhaust and good fuel management, how can we make it to rev or in other words, what is stopping it from reving. The crank as been known to spin up to 8000 rpm in some stroked 2ZZ. The con rods are thin as paper, which may be good, to some extent in reducing rotationnal mass but in that case, it might be a flaw... looking at some crower rods here with some after market bearing. Pistons are not interfearing here but if you go with rods, in the name of god get higher CR pisto, you won't have to worry about the stock rods and you will up torque all over the powerband.

    now all that is left is the valve train, upgrade for lighter valves and stiffer spring. The shimeless bucket type on the 1ZZ is even better than the ones in the 4AGE and it is also bigger, which will alloy us to use a more agressive cam without having to worry to much about long term reliability. upgrading the oil pump and getting an oil cooler, as well as a bigger capacity oil sump will keep things cool and lubricated.

    I don't think we are looking at a small fortune here, just a lot of custom parts, which might take so time to build and test but not a lot of $$$.

    Anyways, that was wayyyyy too long but I had a lot in my head here, like I told you I've been thinking about this for a couple of years, and for those of you who are telling me that moving the power band so up is crazy and will be hell for a street setup, well let me tell you that I have ridden a 105 ft/lbs 4age producing 162 hp big port for almost 2 years and that it wasn't a dog at all to ride on the streets, even when it took all 8500 rpm to make it sing those hp figures.

    Now think about it... if you are still reading...

    Tom
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    TommyBoy Guest

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    Hell that must be the loooooogest thread ever.... I didn't realized but I really had a LOT to say....

    Tom
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    GSE21tuner Formerly rollatuner110. Representing AZLexus.club

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    You have a point there. The question is where would we go to get these custom parts manufactured? I'm sure you can probably make them yourself if you have a machine or access to one. Once you in some R&D and testing down and have the pieces perfected, you can have a template to start mass producing them. I'd be glad to look in on this with you. I'm also very interested in the true potential of the 1ZZ.
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    Schoat333 New Member

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    sounds like you have the same idea as me. im in the process of rebuilding the 1zz in my 2001 with high comp pistons and crower rods.
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    TommyBoy Guest

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    That's a good foundation you are building on to say the least... go on an keep us informed

    Now for my plan...

    first, I will make some calculation regarding hte exhaust system, I think I might go with something close to stock since we already have a neat 4 to 1 extractor good for top end power. Ceramic coating should take care of the heat or just a good coat of heat insulation tape. As far as the size, I don't think we need to go much bigger for N/A use but I can't say for sure since I didn't took out my calculator yet.

    The cat will need to go but since I'm a bit on the green side with this, it will give it's place to a high flow cat. Past the cat, their is nothing we can do to increase flow but as everybody knows, cats are the biggest obstruction to air flow. A good exhaust port gasket match will take care of the rest.

    As for the intake/fuel management, I'm looking at modifing a megasquirt ECU to control single coil ignition but as I can read on their site, it is something they are already testing. First, I will use it to control fuel only, since its MAP directed, along with TPS, Coolant temp and AIT, I will be able to make a good looking ITB intake looking right to the front of the grill, right in the cold air flow.

    After, will come full management by the megasquirt and the valve train upgrade along with a good polish with longer duration cam (around 270-280) and 9 to 10 mm lift.

    To get the most outta those upgrade, I will have to buy a used block and rebuild it using a 2zz oil and water pump, better bearings and some (custom machining) and then tune everything right and get it to rev... to soon to speak about numbers here

    We are looking at a good 3000 to 4000 hard cash over a couple of years... hell I'm moving at the end of october to a bigger house so I will have to wait before getting the new block... no point in moving with a striped engine and 2 boxes full of engine bits and pieces. I'm not advancing any numbers here and lets stay realistic here if I can move the peek hp from 5600 rpm to 7500, without making more torque, which is 121 flywheel ft/lbs at peek torque, we are looking at 180 flywheel hp.

    That's only extrapolation of things and it is too soon for me to really back those number but if I can get the block to sing SAFELY to 8000, we are looking at 192 hp.

    There is a lot to be done (actually everything) and only time (and calculations)will tell if i'm mistaking but hell you can't blame me for trying

    And a little word for those that are saying that this is useless and to go buy another car well I love my rolla and that's why I bought it, I could buy something else in the blink of an eye but I don't want to have another fast car, I wan't a quick COROLLA, and don't tell me those 2 words don't go together, It's just an other reason for me to prove you wrong.

    I will first prove my point or fail in the process, but if everything turns out for the best, I might be able to get a couple of guys on the project to mass produce some pieces.... intake, camshaft, and fuel control but it's to early to speak on that subjet now, give me some time, I'm working on it in my spare time and I don't have a lot of it right now, but I promise that I will do my best to help the little izzy get more duzzy

    Tom
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    rainbow_star New Member

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    wow this thread is long but I love it! :D
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    peter_x9 Guest

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    TommyBoy....

    Keep it up. You got my support. Continue to update us in this thread. I'm very interested in where this is going.
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    TommyBoy Guest

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    Hey thanks for your support...

    Here is an update for you...

    I took out my calculator this week at work and got some hard stuff to work with. This is only technical tunning and everything might be a little different when it'll come to real wrold tunning but this is my starting point.

    I was looking at using megasquirt to control fuel map and run the standard ECU for ingnition and everything else at first, then after that, I will upgrade megasquirt to be able to use it as a standalone (control VVT, ignition). With the ability to use MAP, I will have the freedom to run ITB on velocity stacks and give the little FE somewhere to breath from.

    So here are the numbers at last, using 270 duration cams and standard, or little higher lift (gotta dig some numbers for that one), for both intake and exhaust, the timing seems to be right on spot (yet again don't forget this is technical so it might be a little off but not by much) exhaust will be 110 BTDC and intake 108 ATDC.

    For intake lengh, sit down before you read this.... I was going through my table and ended up with a intake runner lengh of 9 inch to make power up their, between 6000 and 8000, between the intake valve and the ITB. Now I was: "wait a minutes, that's WAY to short", so I went through everything again and everything looked right....
    Only after that did I mesure our intake manifold lengh and where on the power band it's suppose to make power..... the answer is.... idle.... f*$k that +24 inch intake manifold is suppose to make power between idle and 1500 rpm is that crazy enough for you?? Don't suprise yourself why nobody can get this engine to breath, the worst restriction is bolted right in front of your engine.

    As far as the exhaust lenght, I'm getting 4 1/2 feet from exhaust valves to high flow cat, being a 4 to 1, that give use 2 1/4 feet runners, which will require to move the front O2 sensor backwards but as far as clearance is, I think everything is still possible without shit loads of mods.

    As for the futur..... waiting for my baby to show it's little face, suppose to be around the 12th of july, so I will have time to get everything mesured and ready to go before that, and maybe have the exhaust finished. After that, give me a couple of months to get use to the baby and to give my wife some help, then I'll be moving at the beginning of october..... so If everything goes as planned, I will start again to work on the intake and fuel management, at the end of fall. As I told you, it's a long term project and I have no date, it'll be ready when it is. I will buy a used 1ZZ after moving and then i'll be rebuilding it and use it as a test bed for everything else (intake, sensors, bearing, cams, valve train, etc)

    Anyways, I'll keep you guys informed

    Tom
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    Vibe New Member

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    im very interested in what you come up with, tommy. maybe one day you'll allow random guys like me to drive up to montreal (which i do anyway) and help me out with my 1zz dilemmas lol
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    rainbow_star New Member

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    It's so sad that our TB is designed to make power from idle to 1500rpm, what a big joke.
    But if you're going ITB, 9" should be just right. :)
    I think with just I/H/E and standalone, you will get somewhere around 150hp since stock celica GT gets 140hp.
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    TommyBoy Guest

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    I'd be very happy to help you guys out, gotta take my mesuring tape and make some last calculation and as you are saying, that's what i'm expecting, 150 to 160 Whp so it's about 170 to 180 bhp if you guys wanna compare. Some may find it too high but what I'm really aiming for is 100 bhp per L, that's becoming serious N/A power, but as I told you, onlyt time will prouve me right... or wrong.... but I believe that the little izzy is capable of holding a lot more power than what Toyota expected, it's all a question of tunning...

    Tom
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    Vibe New Member

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    so the TB from celicas are different from 1zz? meaning i can't take the tb from a celica and put it on mine?
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    TommyBoy Guest

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    I don't know about the tb but from what I can remember, it is slightly larger.... their is not a big difference what so ever between the two, your TB flow enough for the engine, even if it's slightly larger. The difference is in the manifold, the runners are shorter, which means that the torque curve moves higher, that,s explains peak power from 5600 to 6000. The good news is that it's a bolt-on, except for the angle at which the stock tubing clamps to the TB so you might have to change it. Now the bad news, you are NOT gonna make more power with it because your fuel delivery is not mapped to go along with it. Even more, it is not that much better then your stock manifold, that's why 'm looking at producing a GOOD manifold with Indivitual Throttle Bodies.

    Short answer, don't bother to swap it if you don't have, either a piggy back fuel management or a complete standalone programable ECU. Just my 2 cents.....

    Tom
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    Vibe New Member

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    well i plan to get a power fc once i finish doing all my modifications (ie. forged internals, water pump/alternator pulleys, M/T swap).
    i wont be touching the internals until i graduate. I might do the M/T swap during summer 2008.

    hopefully by the time i get my power fc, you have ITB's done :D
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    rainbow_star New Member

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    Celica TB fits no problem, Vamp did a swap long time ago. But he said you will lost power with it with just stock ECU like TommyBoy said. You need a piggy back or standalone.

    I think 100hp/L for 1zz maybe possible, just not streetable. You won't have any lowend at all.
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    TommyBoy Guest

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    That's what I wanna prove...

    Hell what ever I do to that engine, it will still have a 91.5mm stroke, which will generate torque, a lot more that a lot of other streetable engine, what ever is done to the cylinder head to improve breathing, it will be "less" streetable (have less torque down the curve or idle a little higher) but our engine as already to much torque (well to much is never enough :p) but hell, it could go with much lower torque numbers in the low end. If some people can drive around our car powered by 2E and 4ZZ-FE puting down to the wheels not even 50 ft/lbs, I don't think i'll have much problem, assuming that a 91.5mm stroke will generate at least that much torque at 2000 rpm even if I move the torque line up to 8000 rpm...

    Anyways, only time will tell.

    And by the way... I forgot to tell you guys, if I can dig what I need to complete it, i'll be swaping, in a couple of weeks, a different tranny than you guys with the cool to have 4.312 FD... C52 from a 4A-GE... so even if I make 50 ft/lbs at 2000, I will still get almost the same torque figures to the wheel as you guys get being stock with the 3.722 FD... If you guys want hard numbers, i'll get out my calculator but take my word for it....

    Tom
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    rainbow_star New Member

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    How about the cam? To make high hp # you will need fast cam in high rpm range, but then you will lost all the lowend.
    Somebody in 9thgen is trying to put stage 1 cam in the 1zz, but no update on the result yet. :(
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    TommyBoy Guest

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    By saying "build up the cylinder head", I mean a light port, a valve job and CAMS... how do you think anyone can MOVE a torque power band??? Tuning will get you so far. But changing the air flow dramaticly means porting the head and matching it with bigger cams. I'm looking at something around 270 duration and stock or little higher lift (below .5mm more). I will surely loose some low end power and maybe have to idle a little higher but my point is that you will need a lot less bottom end power to make that engine unstreetable. But as I told you only time will tell....

    By the way, the worst thing you can do is get those regrounded cams... stage 1, 2 or 3... what people just don't understand is that you can't add stuff all over the place in an engine and expect it to perform... it has to be assembled as a whole, with every things working with the other... you gotta match the head to the cams or the cams to the head and tune it right. I ones saw a fully build 1ZZ running on racing gaz pushing 160 hp... but the guy didn't want to change the cams and tune it right... just relying on high compression ratio and fully build internal plus add-on.... according to my school of thought, that's the wrong way to go.

    I will have regrounded cams but they will be made by the same person that will port the head so both things are matched... That will be the most costly thing on the build since I don't own a flow bench and a good milling machine and that is the only place where you can't save.... you get what you pay for and their is no way to cut corners around that one.

    Tom
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    jtweezy New Member

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    interesting thread...... that is all I can say.
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    jtweezy New Member

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    TommyBoy Guest

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    Thx for the tip... I've just send an e-mail to the seller.. now just waiting for an anwser but that just might be the right block for me...

    will post an update soon....

    Tom
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    Vibe New Member

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    GSE21tuner Formerly rollatuner110. Representing AZLexus.club

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    Yeah I saw that a while ago. Its interesting but it seems like too much work for me. And I'm not sure how much gain you can achieve from that.
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    Vibe New Member

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    maybe not so much with the engine in that illustration than it is with our car since from what i've been reading here...with our tb, its designed to make power at idle (maybe i read wrong, been a few weeks now.)
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    jtweezy New Member

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    you just get better throttle response...not much HP
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    GSE21tuner Formerly rollatuner110. Representing AZLexus.club

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    It just sounds like a SRI on crack. Lots of throttle response and some top end gain. It might get some low end too but its so close to the motor that its pulling in all that hot air. But the intake is pointed toward the front of the car unlike Hondas. I think it would be more effective to have ITBs with a collector enclosing them and then have a large diameter CAI running to the fender. It would pass a visible smog inspection easier rather than seeing four velocity stacks staring up at you.
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    Vibe New Member

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    so when are we getting these ITB's made?
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    Vibe New Member

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    cmon ITB's!!! lol
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    TommyBoy Guest

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    Sorry guys... I havent been on the forum for over a month now. I just had my first son and he is drainning away a lot of energy now!

    Anyways, I have done my homework and got all the specs for the cams and tunning, I'm curently building the ECU with the help of a megasquirt unit but nothing so far was done on the side of the ITBs...

    Like someone was pointing out, the ITBs are excellent for throttle response and top end power and the will help a lot to get some more airflow in the port. Thing about it, the only real difference between a 4age red top and silvertop (apart from the 5th valve which a lot of guys say is useless du to bore shrouding) is the induction system. And with the velo stacks pointing directly forward into the wind it will have some kind of ram effect.

    Anyways that was the update and I will try to keep you guys informed when i'll get more time to work on the project. And by the way, exhaust is getting done next week.

    Tom
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    jcrwzr Member

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    dude, 1zz-fe with ITB's that's like gonna make your car go

    WOOO WOOOOOO!!!!

    Like an alarm clock! You know breakfast in the morning and the train passing by. it aint no big deal it just go WOOO WOOO!!! you hear me, son?

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